Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 13:08:17 -0400 (EDT) From: alerma Subject: Goon vist #2 ...Susan Taylor knocks.. !Please no lectures about dancing with the devils! well, well, this time two ladies were at my door, I didnt invite them in. Instead, I thought, hey, this is what I bought that marantz PMD 201 Pro Cassette recorder with Automatic Level control, and 1/2 speed recording for 90 minutes a side... Built in Microphone,..... Cut to home improvement Tv show, doing that chimp sound as the men stand around admiring thier tools.. Seriously, OK, I got the big STICK on the fax... This was a very conciliatory meeting.. I've got it all on tape, and I know everyone wants to hear it.. but I just stepped back inside my home and logged in.. I shall have to transcribe it.. All I wish to say at this time is a brief summation. I said, sure I'll chat a bit, but I wish to tape the conversation,OK? OK.. And I sterpped out on my front porch, and the sat down... nn They entire tone of the discussion was "What can be do to keep you from posting this stuff again" I told them that my intent was to obey the law, and all they would have to do is provide me with proof this court case was sealed "We want an open comm line for negotiations" I said, well I alreay got some letter from a law firm, so its a moot point? She said, we work all this out.. "You realize these are sacred scriptures" I said, I have confined my activities to making copies of Open Court Documents as a public service. "What are we going to do" I said I dunno,I havent talked to my attorney yet. I said I intend to obey all apllicable laws and contrary to the claims in thier lawyers letter, I posted an open court document I told her about Suzette.. She described how church management has changed... I laughed.. I did agree to not post the stuff from the Fish Geertz aff, to give them something(underlined) that costs me nothing, until I got a full legal opinion on the status of the fish geertz affidavit, I said, hey, you provide me with proof this thing is a sealed case, and and I'll publically apologize.. (knowing from the info I have , they can't) I said, you guys must be in a bind. I know you wernt briefed on the full scope of this, - you wouldnt have been sent to check out peace making so soon, unless you knew your legal status was tenuous, at best, as well as you wishto avoid any and all further publicity.. (no comment).. What do you want? I said, Full disclosure in the Public Interest, and went on to describe that I was just 'an anti-corruption nut' well known in Northern Va for same, and I just considered Cof$ another corrupt organization. Comment, it was either an ACT or genuine , but, Susan Taylor, OSA, says she hasnt read many of the affidavits.. I told her that she and her friend ought to before proceeding, and do so in the same order I did, and mebbie it would deprogram them... (laugh)... She said she would read them, if I would provide copies... I said, sorry, I wasnt going to copy 15" of documents at Kinko's for her.. I said, look, you read them in the same order I did, and then we might have an informed conversation. She said she would, and told me to fax the list in the order I recammended.. (!) ----------- Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 13:47:12 -0400 (EDT) From: alerma Subject: Excerpts from taped interview Guys, I'm not gonna transcribe the whole thing today. here are some quoted highlights: Arnie... uh record level, is this on? yeah, ok I heard your name but what was it? ST: Sue Taylor PJ: Pat Jones ST: ah, we just, actually, wanted to stop by because we were concerned about, um,the material that you recently posted, in the he, a..(mumble) AL: out of the the sworn affidavit, part of an open court record that is not closed. That my understanding of it. that containes the materials, that, uh. ST: Did you personally get get them from the court records? or did someone give them to you? AL: Well, I think thats irrelevant ST: Just curious,...cause one of the biggest problesm, as you probobly know, as you are a computer nut, (laugh) is that under the laws of copyright, for instance the OT materials are copyright, ah, when you put them on the internet, my understanding is, that it is, quote unquote copying them. Its not like... AL: Well the way it was lookin to me was, I've gotten a bunch of affidavits, that I've ocr's and uploaded. ST: whats OCR? AL: Optical character recognition, you take the text off the document and you end up with bianry text. And all I've been doin is copying affidavits. I even was informed that this thing hasnt been sealed. You just walk in, and you get copy of it. ST: Can I ask you who told you that? AL: um, I can't recall, off the top of my head... ST: Did you verify it? Somebody may have told you that did you verify it? AL: Personally verify it? ST: I'm just saying, that, AL: Well I know these are a lot of 'If's' AL: Can you tell me right now that it is a sealed court record? ST: I personally can't.. AL : Fine, OK. ST: I'm not a lawyey,.. AL: yeah, fine, right, right... ...... ST: Why? Pat and Iw ere discussing this, why are you doing this? AL: Why...I guess I just believe in full disclosure... ....... Anyhow, that should give you an idea of how this thing went.. ------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 02:10:17 -0400 (EDT) From: alerma Subject: more transcript from goonsville AL: record level, is this on, yeah AL: II heard your name but what was it just for the record? SUE TAYLOR: Sue Taylor PAT JONES: Pat Jones ST: Uhm, we just wanted to stop by because we are concerned about the material you posted.... AL: out of a sworn affidavit, part of an open court record that is not closed. Thats my understaning of it. Its a court record that contains the materials that you'all are talking about.. ST: did you personally get this from the court records or did someone give this to you... AL: I think thats irrelevant, but you know ST: Just curious, because Um. I guess, one of the biggest problems, as you probably know, since you.. as a computer nut, (laugh) is that, under the laws of copyright, for instance like the OT materials are copyrighted, AL: yeah, ahhhh ST; when you put them on the internet, my understanding is that it is quote unquote copying them, and its not like... AL: ahhhhhhyeahbut the way, the way it was lookin to me is is I've gotten a bunch affidavits and I've ocr'd them and uploaded 'em, ST: OCR? AL: Optical character recognition, yyeah, you know, you take the text off the document, and then you end up with binary text, ST: ah, I see, ok AL: and all I've been doing was copying affidavits... ST: and then sticking them on the internet.. AL: and I even was informed that this thing hasnt been sealed. I mean you just walk in, and you get a copy of it. ST: Can I ask who told you that? AL: um, I...can't recall off the top of my head, I mean this is just. ST: Let me ask you, did you verify it though?..somebody may have told you that but did you actually verify it? AL: what Personally verify it? ST: yeah AL: well I mean ST: I'm just saying..that if... AL: well yeah I know but These are a lot of "ifs" AL: But..Can you tell me right now that it's a sealed court record? ST: I personally can't. AL: fine, ST: yeah AL: OK, so, you know ST: I'm not a lawyer or anything AL: Right, right, right.....just understand the way I was lookin at this..I wouldnt intentionally, you know ST : but you got it from..... AL: I know the line, you know what I mean? If I'm going to play this game, i know the line and the line is you you stick to public records. PJ: you actually got it from the court? ST: He said he got it.. AL: I have a copy of what came from the court, which I cannot be required to delete, er. destroy.. Its a open court record ST: ....open court record (in unison) ST: But if its not an open court record, AL: But if its NOT an open court record, then theres a problem. ST: then theres a problem.. PJ: but also its copyrighted and you copied it.. AL: If its an open court record,...you see what I am copying is an open court record, you see what I mean? ST: We'll have to ask one of our attorneys, pat, 'cause I really dont understand that either.. AL : I got a letter from some, you know, law firm, he doesnt mention there's an affidavit involved, all he talks about is the OT levels my understanding of what I'm doing, is, all I'm doing is making copies of the open court records. PJ: Not copyright materials? AL: Yeah, right, I didnt copy the "OT Materials", I did not make a copy of the "O" "T" "Materials", - I copied an open court record. Thats my understanDing, if I'm going to get persecuted for that, er, hauled in court for that, I dunno, I havent talked to my attorney yet.. ST: ..yeah, as I said, my understanding is, is that these materials are copyrighted, AL: you understand, materials can be copyright but if they are in an open court record, they are a matter of public record, which is you'alls problem to try to get this thing sealed right away. ST: Lets say for instance, didnt get them, said they did, but didnt get them from a court record.....then there's a big problem, AL: ah um, then theres a big probleM, but even then.. I've made ever effort to stay within the law. I get a lot of this stuff in the mail, and I dont solicit it, I mean its like, Oh, this guys got a scanner..that's basically why, i'm the guy with a scanner, I'm not anybody particularly special... ST: your the guy with the scanner.. AL: I'm the dude with a scanner. ST: The EZ whatever it is... ST: yeah yeah.. ST: the other thing I dont understand, pat and I were discussing this, wwwwhhy? AL: Why? ST: Why are you doing this? AL: sigh, I guess I just believe in full disclosure.. AL: I guess i was motivated by OSA, and the records of past harrassments, and the number of people who've ended up in shivering effect, afraid to come forward, ---any group, that I percieve to be,...using these kinds of heavy handed tactics, there's something very wrong. I just include the current management of the Church of Scientology as just being 'another' corrupt institution... ST: did you by any chance get any services over the years..no, did you get any auditing, do any ot levels? get up that far? AL: yeah, ST: You understand they are confidential.. AL: Yeah I also also understand a number of other things about that too, but before I discuss that stuff with you you'd have to refer to my attorney. ST: Do you understand how other scientologists feel about this? AL: oh, i'm sure, I'm sure... ST: So what are we going to do about this? AL: Beats the hell out of me. (TO BE CONTINUED)