Civil Action No. 95B2143








F.A.C.T.NET, INC., et al.,









13 Proceedings before the HONORABLE JOHN L. KANE, JR.,

14 Judge, United States District Court for the District of

15 Colorado, commencing at 9:30 p.m., on the 11th day of

16 September, 1995, in Courtroom C401, United States Courthouse,

17 Denver, Colorado.






DEBORAH A. STAFFORD, Official Reporter

23 P.O. Box 3592

Denver, Colorado, 80294

24 (303) 5710530

25 Proceedings Reported by Mechanical Stenography

Transcription Produced via Computer

























24 THE COURT: Be seated, please. Before you begin,

25 there has been some question about these big guys sitting over


1 here in the jury box, and so just for the sake if anybody's

2 curious, they happen to be law students. We have an

3 internship program at this court which compensates for the old

4 days when the DU Law School was above Ma Pele meat market and

5 the students used to walk over from the law school and see

6 lawyers in court. Now it's a structured formal administrative

7 procedure. There are plans of committees that handle what

8 used to be done serendipitously, and we are very happy to have

9 these young men here. One of them in fact is already admitted

10 to the bar, but the others are in their second year of law

11 school. Go ahead.

12 MR. KELLEY: The defendant will call the first

13 witness, Mr. Robert Vaughn Young.

14 THE COURT: Mr. Young.

15 (Robert Vaughn Young was sworn.)

16 MR. COOLEY: May I inquire whether Mr. Young is being

17 called as a fact witness or expert witness.

18 MR. KELLEY: As far as I know, Your Honor, he is

19 being called as a fact witness.

20 THE COURT: All right.

21 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Please be seated. State your

22 name for the record and please spell your last name.

23 THE WITNESS: Robert Vaughn Young, YOUNG.




1 Q Good morning, Mr. Young. Where do you live now?

2 A Seattle, Washington.

3 Q Were you ever involved with the Church of Scientology?

4 A Yes, sir, I was.

5 Q When did that begin?

6 A It started in 1968 when I was working on my Ph.D. in Davis

7 California. That's when I began studying the books.

8 Q Did you continue your studies for some period of time?

9 A The Scientology studies?

10 Q Yes.

11 A Yes, I did. The following year I joined the staff there,

12 helped to start a mission. From that point, I was fulltime

13 Scientology as a staff member until 1989.

14 Q Would you give us a history of the assignments that you

15 had while you were with the staff of Scientology during those

16 years, sort of in a nutshell.

17 A For about 20 years in one form or another of public

18 relations dealing with the media authorities, dealing with the

19 courts, dealing with federal authorities. I was at Davis and

20 in San Francisco where I joined Department 20 which was at

21 that point called the Guardian's Office. Worked in the San

22 Francisco organization there for two years dealing with the

23 media.

24 Q What's the Guardian's Office.

25 MR. COOLEY: I object.


1 THE COURT: Overruled.

2 THE WITNESS: The Guardian's Office was a name given

3 to Department 20 which was that section of Scientology that

4 dealt with the external influences and enemies of the church.

5 This ranged from suppressive persons to the media, to the

6 courts, to the governments, anything outside the periphery of

7 what you have heard discussed at the hearing.


9 Q Continue with your history of your involvement.

10 A In 1973 I was promoted to the United States Guardian's

11 Office. I was there working in a public relations capacity.

12 I worked in some high level secret programs at that time. In

13 1977 we were raided by the FBI. I was the initial spokesman

14 at that time. My name could be found in Newsweek Magazine,

15 The New York Times, speaking on behalf of Scientology about

16 the raid. I went to Washington, D.C. a couple years later and

17 served when the executives were on trial and subsequently

18 about ten or so Scientology executives went to jail as a

19 result of that raid. In 1982 I was promoted up to a level

20 called Author Services Incorporated, which we called ASI.

21 This moves into the secular area. There was an outside

22 peripheral secular area of Scientology. The office was

23 promoting itself as being Mr. Hubbard's literary agency, where

24 we were actually running Scientology for a while as the

25 changeover occurred from the executives going to jail. I


1 worked there in public relations as an editor and writer.

2 Also in '82 I testified as an expert in the Gerald Armstrong

3 case in Los Angeles there on the life of Mr. Hubbard. My job

4 was to present testimony, discredit him, Mr. Armstrong. And

5 then a number of capacities then in '89 Mr. Hubbard died in

6 '86, and things began to sort of fall apart and I subsequently

7 left in '89.

8 Q What did you do after leaving the church in '89?

9 A Began to do some freelance writing. Did that for a couple

10 years. I won some awards including the awards from the

11 Society of Professional Journalists for my writing. Then in

12 '93 I was approached by Graham Berry, who learned that I had

13 had 21 years in the organization dealing with enemies of the

14 church, and that was pretty much what we did in the Guardian's

15 Office, which is the R.T.C. That's what they were formed to

16 do, was to be above the Guardian's Office which was renamed to

17 the Office of Special Affairs. He interviewed me for a few

18 days along with another attorney, Dan Liepold and requested

19 that myself and my wife asked if we would serve as expert

20 consultants to help interpret the language because it's a

21 great as I am sure very arcane language and of some

22 complexity if we could interpret this and provide some

23 interpretation. I helped them find materials. We began to

24 work on the FishmanGeertz case. Also, testified in the

25 Stevens v. Sally Jessie Raphael case. Also, a case in Los


1 Angeles where Emery Wilson Corporation was suing a Scientology

2 front group. They lost that case on Summary Judgment. That's

3 pretty much my history.

4 Q Did you charge consulting fees for your work on these

5 cases?

6 A When I'm taken on as a consultant, yes, sir, I do.

7 Q Did I retain you in this case to do some work for me?

8 A Yes, sir, you did.

9 Q Did I ask you to research and assemble materials showing

10 the extent to which the contents of the O.T. series has been

11 kept a secret?

12 A Yes, sir, you did. I had explained to you that I had

13 dealt in my public relations capacity

14 MR. COOLEY: I object to this as totally hearsay.

15 The question was was he retained. The answer is yes.

16 THE COURT: Overruled.

17 THE WITNESS: Because I had explained that I had

18 dealt with instances of the O.T. materials going into the

19 public, into the media, into courts. I had been familiar with

20 this for about 20 years.


22 Q Did you go out and gather information of the kind that I

23 requested?

24 A Yes, sir, I did.

25 Q Have you assembled that for presenting here in court


1 today?

2 A Yes, sir. I gave it to you. I have been told it has been

3 put in some binders. I did see a binder.

4 Q Let me call your attention to what has been marked as

5 Defendants' Exhibit Double H1 through double H24.

6 A Is it okay if I move this over to this? Can I have the

7 number again, please.

8 Q I am referring to a binder which contains exhibits double

9 H1 through Double H24. Do you have that in front of you?

10 A Yes, I do.

11 Q Before we get into that, let me ask you this. When you

12 were with Scientology, working PR and with the GO, did there

13 come to your attention any breaches of security with respect

14 to the O.T. materials?

15 A Yes, sir. It was one of the worst kept secrets in the

16 world.

17 MR. COOLEY: I object.

18 THE COURT: Overruled.


20 Q Did it come to your attention that O.T. materials turned

21 up missing in circumstances other than the Copenhagen and UK

22 thefts that you heard about from Mr. McShane?

23 A Yes, sir. I was personally familiar with these instances.

24 Q Were there circumstances other than theft that gave rise

25 to missing materials?


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q What kinds of circumstances?

3 A Well, the funniest one was a gentleman they put the

4 materials in their briefcase. He put his briefcase on the top

5 of his car and drove off and the briefcase broke open is

6 what we heard the story from, when we were giving the evidence

7 on this, and the O.T. materials were drifting down the

8 Hollywood freeway. And another gentleman simply lost his

9 materials in travel someplace. So there were several

10 instances where they were simply lost, and they just didn't

11 know where they went.

12 Q Now, let me ask you to take us through Exhibit double H

13 and begin with item 1 and tell us the significance of each,

14 and just given the fact we are short of time, be as brief as

15 possible.

16 A Item 1 is a copy of The Auditor which is the Scientology

17 journal. This is from 1968. What we have here is if I may

18 jump over to item 2 because these were put in out of sequence.

19 Item 2, Exhibit 2, should have been first. This is 1968. You

20 will see here on the front page underneath the picture of the

21 person who is Otto Roos O.T. Course Sections Three to Six has

22 been since declared as a suppressive person for using the O.T.

23 materials. Section Three began January 1, 1968, so this now

24 gives

25 THE COURT: Tell us exactly when O.T. III started.


1 THE WITNESS: You will also see on this issue on the

2 next page Racket Exposed. Here's the order from L. Ron

3 Hubbard declaring people suppressive persons for having

4 taken forged upper level materials. So what we have here

5 is within months of 1968 there is evidence of according to

6 the Scientology publications, that the O.T. materials are

7 starting to get out in '68. Exhibit 1, this simply is another

8 instance. On page 2, another one, where Hubbard says here

9 that they have been stolen, et cetera. That was what I was

10 taught to say all of the time, it appears they were stolen,

11 altered, et cetera. This is what Hubbard used because

12 Mr. Hubbard said it here.

13 Q What is Item 3?

14 A Item 3 is a book section by Robert Kaufman 1972. I was in

15 the Guardian's Office at that time. This is what we called a

16 major flap. This is the first time that the O.T. materials

17 went into a book form. He takes this all of the way from

18 sections well below O.T. III which is what I believe

19 Mr. McShane was mentioning. There were other sections well

20 below that that are considered confidential. He takes them

21 all of the way through. Quite extensively it goes on for some

22 pages. That was the first book that published the O.T.

23 materials in '72.

24 Q Did you hear Mr. McShane say that the story of Xemu and

25 the volcanoes and the body Thetans and so forth were not


1 matters that were ever considered secrets?

2 A I heard that, sir. I was astounded.

3 Q Was that the position of Scientology while you were with

4 it?

5 A I would bet you anything you can collect up any group

6 of Scientologists having done O.T. III, unless they heard it

7 in the media, they have never heard or seen body Thetans or

8 been told why there are volcanoes that are symbols. They have

9 just changed the tactics for the first time in the history

10 since '68 right here. This is brand new. And that's I am

11 astounded. My jaw dropped.

12 Q How about Item 4?

13 A Item 4 is a copy of the magazine from Chic magazine,

14 January 1977, Inside Scientology. The opening words deal with

15 O.T. III.

16 Q What is Item 5?

17 A Item 5 is an article from the Las Vegas Review Journal of

18 August 10, 1980. My name is mentioned in this article along

19 here because I was sent to Las Vegas on this because the

20 newspaper called in and said they are going to publish the

21 O.T. materials. I was sent to Las Vegas to deal with this. I

22 met with the with the writer of this article, whose name is

23 in the byline, Sherm Frederick who was the city editor. He

24 had with him at the time full copies of the O.T. materials in

25 the pack, which astounded me. I had done O.T. V. He had it


1 all of the way up through O.T. V and was asking me questions

2 about this. I did my usual song and dance. Well, these are

3 stolen. This is altered, et cetera. He ended up writing

4 about it in here. In fact, he takes materials from O.T. V

5 about people telepathically getting somebody to flap their

6 arms or mail postcards from a distance which was in O.T. V.

7 So this is where I went off to try to stop the publication of

8 it and it went ahead to be published.

9 Q He had copies of the actual O.T. I through V?

10 A Yes, sir, he had packs of these things, which astounded

11 me, because there it was. There was a lot handwritten from

12 Mr. Hubbard. He had copies of the handwritten. He had copies

13 of the processes, the full packs, and at that time I had not

14 seen a full pack in anybody's possession.

15 When I got back, we managed to piece it together,

16 where it had come from.

17 Q Did you ask him how he got it?

18 A I asked him, and he declined to say.

19 Q Incidentally, there is an attachment to this No. 5 with

20 the word "Sea Organization" at the top. It appears to be

21 something that was misplaced here from my office. I would

22 like you to just describe what this is and separate it from

23 the rest of Item 5.

24 A Yes, this is not part of well, shouldn't have been part

25 of Item 5. Item 5 should have been the newspaper story. What


1 this thing, Sea Organization, dated 26 May '82 is a

2 suppressive person declaration. Scientology has this category

3 of suppressive persons which are team people that are engaged

4 in what they say is supressing Scientology. This declares

5 Bill Robertson and several others, Alex Sibersky. Bill

6 Robertson was formerly a highlyplaced official also. These

7 orders are issued alerting everybody. You will notice up in

8 the lefthand corner it says, all staff, all public, which

9 means this goes out everywhere. So this meant every

10 Scientologist was to get they were to be put on the

11 bulletin board, et cetera. Basically Bill Robertson's crime

12 was dealing with the O.T. materials in creating something

13 called the Galactic Patrol and using the O.T. materials

14 primarily overseas.

15 Q While we are on that topic, let's look at Exhibit S which

16 is in a different book and ask if you can tell us what that

17 is?

18 A Exhibit S is another Sea Org suppressive group declaration

19 of September 1982 which is a few months later than the other,

20 and the Galactic Patrol is declared a suppressive group. And

21 that was Bill Robertson's group. So the earlier one was

22 specific individuals and now this is his group.

23 Q So the record is clear then, the Exhibit S material

24 relates to the same subject matter as the material that is

25 mistakenly attached to Item H5?


1 A Yes, sir, they should have been together actually.

2 Q Okay. What about Item 6?

3 A Item 6 i apologize for this it came in as a Fax from

4 the Clearwater Sun of 1981. Headline: "Sect Courses Resemble

5 Science Fiction." This goes into the O.T. levels in O.T. III

6 and talking about them.

7 Q On the second page there is some art that appears as an

8 illustration?

9 A Yes, sir. In the caption under the pages which are marked

10 O.T. III say "Material from the operating Thetan course shows

11 eonsold incidents Scientologists relive during training that

12 is supposed to result in super human powers."

13 Q Are you able to tell us whether these are copies of

14 documents from the O.T. materials?

15 A They are reproduced small, sir, it's difficult. To

16 tell you the truth, they appear to be retyping.

17 Q How about Item 7?

18 A Item 7 is from the Clearwater Sun. I believe this is also

19 1981. Somebody punched a hole in the date. I believe it's

20 '81. The headline: "Xemu may sound wild, but so do other

21 beliefs. 75 million years ago Xemu met

22 Q My Item 7 has a date still on it, and it's 1985.

23 A 1985 which would match with some other articles that are

24 here from 8.

25 Q How about Item 8?


1 A Item 8 is a newsletter called The Heretic from 1985. It's

2 from a group that we in Department 20 called a squirrel

3 (phonetic) group. These were groups that took the materials

4 and would go to use a more which Mr. McShane testified

5 as some of these knockout

6 Q Knockoff religion.

7 A That was one of the functions of Department 20 was to

8 knock them out. This is one of these newsletters, The

9 Heretic, an open forum for technical investigation '85.

10 Summary of O.T. III, and they go on to talk about O.T. III in

11 part of the column. It's one of the phenomena of those groups

12 that they felt that the material should have been open and

13 public knowledge.

14 Q What is item 9?

15 A Item 9 is from a newspaper down in Los Angeles called The

16 Reader from '85. On the left in very small print they had a

17 section of advertisements that you could go in and place any

18 kind of free ads, happy birthday, welcome home, that kind of

19 stuff. Somebody did the recitation of O.T. III again from the

20 O.T. III materials. I included that just to show the

21 diversity between alternative press and newsletters, magazines

22 et cetera.

23 Q Item 10?

24 A Item 10, Clearwater Sun, 1985. "Court documents revealed

25 despite Scientology protest." This goes to the incident that


1 has been presented by the plaintiff, where the documents were

2 opened momentarily and they go through and start talking about

3 O.T. III.

4 Q And 11?

5 A 11 is another one from The Los Angeles Times with a

6 photograph of a Scientologist in the hall. Headline:

7 Scientologist blocks access to secret documents. Also talks

8 about O.T. III. Because the LA Time did obtain the they

9 said they obtained a copy of O.T. III.

10 Q Do you have a 12?

11 A Yes, sir, I do.

12 Q I don't have a 12.

13 A My 12 is a copy from Forbes Magazine, October 1986. The

14 Prophet and Profits of Scientology. That also does include

15 along the way materials about O.T. III.

16 Q How about Item 13?

17 A A book called Bigger Secrets by William Poundstone. The

18 book is basically a chapter revealing certain secrets that

19 people don't want you to know in various disciplines. One of

20 the secret teachings of L. Ron Hubbard. He goes into the

21 upper levels of O.T. III.

22 Q How about 14?

23 A 14 is a copy of a French magazine article from '87. And

24 even if you don't read French, you can pick it up there. 75

25 million years ago, and you will see the name Xemu.


1 Q Item 15?

2 A 15 if Xemu's cruel response to overpopulated world.

3 St. Petersburg Times 1988. The whole thing goes into this,

4 and they talk about the volcanoes and cost of the courses and

5 how you are made into clusters and frozen in alcohol, et

6 cetera.

7 Q 16?

8 A 16 is from Gnosis Magazine of 1989. Hubbard's Ladder. It

9 takes up as part of this O.T. III.

10 Q 18?

11 A 18, Woman Reveals Scientology Secrets. '89, St.

12 Petersburg Times, regarding Margery Wakefield. Where she had

13 revealed O.T. III and they discuss it in the article.

14 THE COURT: I have that as 17.

15 THE WITNESS: You are correct, Your Honor. It's 17.

16 MR. KELLEY: Did I skip one?

17 THE WITNESS: I am taking this by the tab order.

18 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Did you skip one?


20 Q You have described 17?

21 A That's 17, Woman Reveals Scientology Secrets.

22 Q 18?

23 A 18 is a Southern California publication called Southern

24 California Psychiatrist July 19, 1990 which is basically a

25 professional journal, a guest editorial by a Dr. West and


1 talks about O.T. III, an editorial to the psychiatric

2 profession.

3 Q 19?

4 A 19 is a 1990 Los Angeles Times series. They had a six

5 part series about Scientology. Part one in here, the headline

6 is it's about eight pages in defining the theology. There

7 are a couple of pages about the beliefs, and it talks about

8 Xemu, how he has expired, where he is up in the wire cage in

9 the mountains, et cetera. That's the Los Angeles Times.

10 Q Was that republished?

11 A That was republished in an Oklahoma newspaper. I have a

12 copy elsewhere. They took all of the six part series and

13 published it into a newspaper and distributed it to anyone who

14 wanted it. It went around the world because all six parts

15 were handled in one place in a newspaper format.

16 Q What's double H20?

17 A Double H20 is called the Townsend Letter. Informal

18 newsletter for doctors. It comes out of California, talks

19 about Scientology and Dianetics in a couple pages, et cetera.

20 It goes into O.T. III. This was sent to me, and I found it

21 interesting because here it was even in a little newsletter to

22 doctors and it's from '91.

23 Q How about double H21?

24 A 21 is the Australian Weekly, '92 September. And down at

25 the bottom there it says, "What do they believe?" It goes


1 into Xemu and the galaxies and the hydrogen bombs.

2 Q 22, Total Freedom Trap?

3 A This is a booklet that was published by Jon Atak.

4 Published in the UK. It's a little pamphlet that I forget

5 how many pages but 36 pages. It's copyright 1992. And it

6 talks about some of the upper levels of what the O.T. sections

7 are about.

8 Q How about Exhibit double H23?

9 A 23 is a Los Angeles magazine which is one of these city

10 regional magazines. Goes by Catch A Rising Star from

11 September 1993. It's about Tom Cruise and his involvement

12 with Scientology and talks about O.T. III.

13 Q And 24?

14 A 24 is the National Enquirer, January 1995, about John

15 Travolta. I was quoted in there because they were asking me

16 some questions, and they mention O.T. III. I was not the one

17 that discussed O.T. III. They had it from someplace else.

18 They had made it one and the same which is the National

19 Enquirer.

20 Q We have heard from Mr. McShane about the Revolt in the

21 Stars screen play. Did you have any personal knowledge of

22 that particular work?

23 A Yes, sir, I did.

24 Q Let me ask you to take a look at Exhibit R and Mr. Case

25 that's one of the ones that's bound like a deposition. It's


1 bound like a deposition.

2 Could you tell us what's contained in that exhibit?

3 A This is a screen play written by Mr. Hubbard which was a

4 science fiction story which basically begins with the whole

5 concept of O.T. III and the story of O.T. III and weaves it

6 into a movie plot pretty much as Mr. McShane described it but

7 not fully.

8 Q Did you have knowledge of any attempts to market or pitch

9 that screen play?

10 A Yes, sir. This started when I was at ASI in 1982. One of

11 our functions was to sell his works, so we were trying to sell

12 his books and his works and get them converted into movies.

13 So this was done over the fiction section DH which was not

14 directly with me but we worked together because since I was

15 over the PR section, they were out trying to peddle it.

16 Inside this exhibit I included Fiction of L. Ron Hubbard.

17 It's not part of the actual screen play. But this thing, the

18 Fiction of L. Ron Hubbard is from Author Services and lists

19 this work as Mr. Hubbard's. There is also inside of it a

20 thing from Brilliant Films which is September '79. They were

21 trying to sell it before we came along in '82. They were

22 trying to sell this Revolt in the Stars, so the treatment

23 I'm sorry the screen play was being passed around

24 Hollywood. People that helped to support it in some ways,

25 contributions, investors were made copies of this so this


1 began to circulate through Hollywood quite a bit, so I

2 included the promotion from Brilliant Films. In the front is

3 a treatment written by Mr. Herbert, which I recognize because

4 when this was given to us, I was very surprised because it

5 listed in here in the screen play, the name of Xemu Etrawl,

6 whoever the man who captures Xemu ends up being L. Ron

7 Hubbard.

8 THE COURT: Mr. Kelley, it's noon. Let's recess

9 until 1:30.

10 (Recess 12:00 until 1:30 p.m.)

11 THE COURT: I'm sorry to have kept you waiting. I

12 try to be prompt but the elevator was stuck and that's quite

13 an interesting experience I haven't had before, but just so

14 you know.

15 MR. KELLEY: I have never heard of a judicial

16 elevator being stuck.

17 THE COURT: There were a lot of happy people for a

18 short period of time.


20 Q Mr. Young, before you went on the stand, I asked you to

21 speak quickly so we might get through this quickly. The court

22 reporter has complained about the drill we are putting her

23 through. So I am going to ask you to slow down just a little

24 bit.

25 A Thank you.


1 Q I want you to back up a second to the Galactic Patrol

2 which was something of a knockoff Scientology program; is that

3 right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And at the time this was happening, you were still with

6 Scientology, it was back in the earlier years?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Did it appear that the Galactic Patrol had all of the O.T.

9 materials?

10 A I didn't have personal knowledge, but I saw reports of it.

11 MR. COOLEY: I object then.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 MR. KELLEY: He was with them at the time. It's

14 talking about reports internal to the organization.

15 THE COURT: That's another matter I don't know of.

16 Q Are the reports you are talking about reports within

17 Scientology?

18 A Yes, it is.

19 Q And according to those reports, did it appear that the

20 Galactic Patrol had the O.T. material?

21 MR. COOLEY: I object to the witness talking about

22 written reports. I object.

23 THE COURT: Overruled.

24 THE WITNESS: The answer is yes the reports were

25 that they had the upper levels.



2 Q In addition to the materials you talked about, have there

3 been books written which disclose parts of the advanced

4 technology?

5 A The one that was an exhibit that I referred to from 1972

6 Inside Scientology by Robert Kaufman.

7 Q How about a book call Messiah or Mad Man?

8 A Yes, that's by Russell Miller. I believe that has upper

9 levels that came out perhaps about four years ago, five years

10 ago.

11 Q Is there one called Piece of Blue Sky.

12 A Yes. Piece of Blue Sky by Jon Atak, who was also the

13 author of that one that I referred to in that exhibit. He has

14 quite extensive materials of upper levels in his book Piece of

15 Blue Sky.

16 MR. KELLEY: Mr. Case, could I ask you to hand the

17 witness double K and double L. These are books that are

18 separate and while we are at it double M.

19 THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: What is double M?

20 MR. KELLEY: It's a video.


22 Q What are double K and double L?

23 A Double K is L. Ron Hubbard's Messiah or Mad Man book by

24 Corydon. O.T. III is covered on page 353 following

25 Q How about exhibit double M, what is that?


1 A Double M is a videotape recording of Big Story Inside the

2 Cult which played on English television. This was about a

3 month ago. Running time is 30 minutes, and I obtained a copy

4 of this from the UK and had it converted to the American

5 system. It talks about O.T. III on that. It's a TV film.

6 Q Did you have occasion while you were with the Scientology

7 organization to review documents obtained from the government

8 through Freedom of Information Act requests?

9 A Yes, sir, I did that for quite a while, thousands of

10 documents.

11 Q Did that review indicate that the government had any of

12 the advanced technology materials?

13 A That came as quite a surprise to me when we did get from

14 the Department of Justice and FBI files and in which there was

15 upper level material there. We didn't know how they got in

16 there, but they were in the government files as well, yes.

17 This would be in the period 1974, 1975, 1976, in that period.

18 Q Let me ask you to take a look at Exhibit S, if you will.

19 Mr. Case, it's in the first volume of defendants' exhibits.

20 A Okay.

21 Q I believe this is the same as exhibit double G which

22 Professor Cleek brought with him. Can you tell us what that

23 is?

24 A You might be referring to Exhibit T. My Exhibit S is the

25 Galactic Patrol.


1 Q Perhaps I am wrong. Is Exhibit T the one that deals with

2 the geological study of O.T. III?

3 A Yes.

4 This is something that I requested via the Internet

5 and came to me. It has the headers on it coming to me. Then

6 I made a copy to provide to you. This was something that

7 originally I discovered on Alt Religion Scientology back

8 around I think I first saw it probably around February of

9 this year. I requested a copy. I got a copy last week.

10 Q What does that purport to do?

11 A This is a scientific study of O.T. III which is done by a

12 gentleman that says he has credentials in geology. What he

13 does talk about O.T. III what's it all about quite

14 extensively and how it relies upon the existence of volcanoes

15 that existed 75 million years ago. He names the volcanoes

16 that are named in O.T. III. There is maybe one dozen or so in

17 here. What he does is he goes through a geological analysis

18 as to whether or not it was possible which volcanoes could

19 have geologically existed, given what we know now about the

20 geology of the earth, the movement of earth plates, et cetera.

21 He takes you through an extensive analysis of all these

22 different locations to see if there is any scientific basis

23 for these volcanoes and concludes that a number of these

24 volcanoes didn't exist at the time. Number of volcanoes are

25 in the wrong locations, et cetera; therefore, he concludes


1 that O.T. III cannot be supported by geological evidence. He

2 has a large bibliography in the back which is it mostly.

3 Q Do you follow Alt Religion Scientology on the Internet?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Is there a regular discussion of the O.T. series?

6 A Yes, sir, quite often.

7 Q Throughout 1995 have you seen postings of the O.T.

8 materials which is attached to the Fishman affidavit?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Are you familiar with the Fishman affidavit and its

11 attachments?

12 A Yes, sir. I worked on the Fishman case.

13 Q How often have you seen postings of its entirely or parts

14 of that set of O.T.?

15 A I saw that them last night, several copies, when I checked

16 into the ARS before I flew back into Denver.

17 Q Did you see them on a regular basis before 1995, before

18 August 1?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Have you seen them a number of times after the August 22

21 raid on the Wollersheim and Penny residences?

22 A In fact, the frequency increased after that point, yes.

23 Q Based upon your research in your 20 years of experience

24 within Scientology, do you feel that the O.T.s I through VII

25 and the form attached to the Fishman affidavit are in any


1 sense a secret?

2 MR. COOLEY: Objection. This witness hasn't been

3 offered as an expert, and I was assured he was not being put

4 on as an expert.

5 MR. KELLEY: It's offered as a factual observation or

6 in the alternative a layman.

7 THE COURT: It's not an expert opinion. I have

8 problems with the way you phrase it by saying "feel"

9 something.


11 Q Based upon the research that I have asked you to do and

12 your 20 years experience with this Scientology, do you have a

13 belief as to whether or not it's accurate to call the O.T.

14 materials attached to the Fishman affidavit a secret?

15 MR. COOLEY: I object.

16 THE COURT: Overruled.

17 THE WITNESS: I couldn't call them a secret, sir, to

18 the degree of the evidence that I have gone over the exhibits,

19 and it has been out in the public domain in one form or

20 another since '68.

21 MR. KELLEY: Thank you, Your Honor.